Lessons learned

Today at 6,000 miles changed rear tire as Bridgestone was coming apart.


#1 First time I had rear wheel off. Designers sure must not ride.

#2 Normal I do this kind of stuff with the tools I carry on board, had to add torx (sp?) for swing arm bolts but only one needs to come out, 22mm open end to get oxygen sensor out(you can remove right side panel and unplug...but why bust some plastic. I carry 27mm socket and breaker bar for rear axle nut.

#3 lots of stuff to take off, simple but time consuming.


General pain in butt---I work from lift----but what about late nite in the rain on the road? Some people still ride to remote places?

I have bead breaker, static balancer-----Probably easier to pay somebody, but then you never know for sure it is put together right.

To think that scooters used to carry spare, Vespa had a little metal stick you put under rear wheel to get it off ground---------split rims.

Most of this new stuff seems to be designed to be not much fun to work on.

John Grinsel

Hi John. Tell us more. Even with removing my prized DennisB hitch, rear wheel removal was only 20 minutes max. Did you remove something that wasn't necessary? Jeff.

You removed the oxygen sensor to remove the muffler to remove the rear wheel?

All I can say is get a service manual.

john grinsel wrote:

... --but what about late nite in the rain on the road?l

Good question, but then let's really make it worse, to borrow a line from George Carlin - "And then you cross the International Date Line..."

Or not just late nite in the rain on the road, but there's also a tornado warning and there are packs of roving dogs and feral cats. And there are hungry polar bears and sharks lurking nearby....

Get a service manual it will make your life easier. Lesson learned?

Service manual----I have one. If you have read. I short cut some of their procedures.


Remember right hand swing arm has to come off-----like Helix----Silverwing is newer design should be better.

Somebody must have better technique....or never done it. Exhaust pipe to muffler has packing that should be replaced----Helix had same deal at heat pipe. Think I will get spare for SilverWing.


John Grinsel

John,

I'd still like to meet you, send me a PM.

I am not computeer geek---don't know how to send PM.

I am stuck in TN until I completely engineer escape plan---not place I want to spend/waste the rest of my life in.

Contact me at 715.###.#### or jgrinsel(at)yahoo(dot)com I am just up the road from you.


John Grinsel

Click the button that says "PM" on it.

Just a little computer advice from a "Computer Geek."

DuggleBogey wrote:

Click the button that says "PM" on it.

What if John needs to send a message in the morning? Where's the "AM" button?

OK...

What if John needs to send a message in STEREO? Where's the "FM" button? or a "BM" botton if....

Why so much more to take off to change rear tire???? Simple

todays scoots move much faster and have much more stress on the rear axle.
The old Vespa's could do maybe 30 mph. Modern scoots can to 100+mph.

I would not want a flexing gyrating rear wheel when going into a corner HOT.

I will pay for the extra removal to not have the dreaded wobble in a corner.

The old split rims are rated for 45 mph today. My buddies 50 cc has just a single nut to remove the rear wheel, but it can only go 30mph. Not a lot of stress on that axle/wheel.
The only split rim I own today is on my wheelbarrow. It is appropiate there as i rarely get over 20mph going downhill , I still get some wobble on it though.

MaxB (who is having homemade chicken soup YUM)

To those that advised me to get service manual---pls advise me how you get space and have room to work without muffler removal----right swing arm as to come straight out to clear axle stub. I assume all critical have done it before.

The muffler is heavy--I didn't want it to hang by Sensor wire---so sensor out- removing muffler and sensor, 4 bolts. Getting it on the bench time for good clean up.

Swing arm maybe could come out be removing a couple of brake line bolts and flex hose might leave enough space to get out-----then we have brake caliphers, removing then makes replaces much easier as you can spread pads prior to placing on disk. Probably possible to get swing arm back on without their removal, but diddle time. I read service manual first.

My point----expensive scooter should have much easier wheel removal procedures. Any body who is serious rider will have to remove wheel 3-4 times a year or more. I had 4 Helix (one was called Fusion, Japanese model Helix) riding them each 36-50000 miles as the warrany ran out---bye bye. For info 3 of the 4 had clutch trouble early in their life-warrany. all four had the guts of the muffler come loose at about 30,000 miles and Honda paid for new $400 muffler. Rubber intake manifolds broke 10-20000 miles. Helix used system like SilverWing for rear wheel removal----SilverWing is smoother and beefed up. Swing arm on Helix bolted directly to engine case in a least 2 places, and longer bolts with nut had to be used as the miles piled up. Never had one leave me by side of road---1 broken belt, but they were easier to change, carried spare belt---no clutch parts had to come off---just need small block of wood to keep rear clutch open to get belt in---cannot do the on SilverWing or Reflex.

For MaxB----How many Vespas have you had? I have had 4, 3 new plus a junky Sears used that could be used to ride to work. I believe the last of the legal for US P series (I had '78 P-200 & bought in Germany a 150 US model in the Pirmasens PX in '83-84...because it was cheap & new.) had J rated tires. The 200 could run 70 mph downhill tailwind. The 150 was smoother in daily operation. A new 125---special for Sears---125 engine in 90cc frame, maybe was best running of all. Got it on closeout in crate as Sears got out the scooter and mc business ('68?) Gee, they all had single sided swing arms. The spilt rims hurt nothing----road salt made them sometimes hard to split. Spare tires on board, great and standard tools that let you change wheels without carrying a bunch of heavy extra tools. Didn't/doesn't BMW and Ducati have bikes with single sided swing arms? How about Imme? My two Messerschmitt KR200's had single sided swing arm for easy wheel removal.

Bottom Line: Modern scooters are not designed to be worked on by the side of the road or in many cases even in shop difficult for the do it yourself type----expensive if you have to pay somebody to do it.

John Grinsel Pls have your ducks in order if you try to go after me.

The muffler or exhaust to me!! Has a break point using two bolts that spit the exhaust after the lamda sensor - so why remove sensor?

Don't really understand what you are doing.

Maybe it's not a Silver Wing!!!!!!!

Hi John. Hats off to you for your comments about changing a tire on the side of the road. My /5 BMW came with a marvelous toolkit, and a tire pump.....all from the factory. Yes, you could do a tire repair on the side of the road. Shoot, I could set the valves on that old opposed twin air head on the side of the road.....by moonlight. Your points are very valid. I hope I didn't come across as being critical when I questioned your R+R. Is there a pictorial on this site on rear tire removal?
And John, as a kid that Sears catalog was everything I needed to keep my dreams alive......electric guitars.....go karts.......Puch motorcycles and scooters........and last but surely not least......women in bras.........Ah the 60's, and being a kid. Jeff. and these are supposed to be boobs .

"Modern scooters are not designed to be worked on by the side of the road or in many cases even in shop difficult for the do it yourself type"

Regrettably in many ways, this seems to be the case with most modern vehicles.
Even the lowliest has computer-diagnostic sockets.
In my youth I rebored the engine in my Morris 1000 van in situ - can't even see the engine in the VW Caddy we now have for all the gubbins attached to it. We play 'Hunt the Dipstick' every time we want to check the oil. My L200 truck was even worse.
In some ways I don't regret it; I don't miss the days of working on the car in the road in freezing weather or torrential rain (I didn't have a garage) as inevitably the things broke down at the worst possible times, nor do I miss the oily finger-nails and grazed knuckles.
I do miss the trips to the breakers to find parts and the satisfaction of getting the car running again, though.
My tools languish largely unused in the garage.

john grinsel wrote:

Pls have your ducks in order if you try to go after me.

John,

I like you, in fact after our short phone call yesterday I realized that Labor Day (Sep 6) may be the day we could meet up.

However, the short snip I took from your most recent post is illustrative. You get the sense that some are "going after you" which would seem to imply that you've sensed a tenor in some post that is hostile or unpleasant toward you.

Imagine being on the other side of some of your (my sense) rather sharp barbs about skills or talents or habits of those you don't know. Are you out to get them? Tolerance and grace are wonderful things not necessarily the sum of life, but worthy of extending toward others.

Forgive me for any sharp pokes I've taken. Please share your knowledge and experience, but as you do so remember that there generally are a couple of ways to do things and when that is the case - no one way (or person) is absolutely correct.

Things I miss:

adjusting valves every 3000 miles

changing tires every 4k miles and having flats in between

changing oil every 2 k miles

Lucas electrics (prince of darkness)

scraping gunk from valve covers

reboring/ ringing every 30k miles

changing sprokets / chains every 10-15k miles

brake drums and sqwealing

manual chokes flooded engines (had to get the drill down pat)

innertubes

adjusting valves taking up chain lash

AH the good old days

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't have to do these things with modern equipment, or at least as often.
I get to ride more than tinker. Regretably I am not as well maintained as i should be, thus not as able to travel as much as i like. Bu at least I can do my maintenace in the comfort of my garage, rather than on the road.

MaxB (who doesn't miss the good old days, at least not the equipment maintenance)

Very valid points there MaxB.

My maintenance these days amounts to ensuring my spanners and such are nice and clean!!!!!

Waspie or others from Merry old England,
What was the tools you had like inches or metric ,

Whitworth or something like that , I still have a couple of those in the bottom drawer.
Amazing what we forget as we get older... is Whitworth?

MaxB (who has drawers full of weird tools that will probalbe never be used again)

A/F, Whitworth and Metric.
My state-of-the-art Elora (now Draper) Socket Set had all three types.

I have had only to replace countless half-inch sockets since I was given it for my 21st.
The ratchet is very clunky - Olga working on her tanks would love it!

My Morris 1000 van and saloon had both A/F and Whitworth nuts on them.

john grinsel wrote:

-then we have brake caliphers, removing then makes replaces much easier as you can spread pads prior to placing on disk. Probably possible to get swing arm back on without their removal, but diddle time. I read service manual first.

I bet you didn't order new rear caliper mounting bolts for reassembly, did you? The service manual stresses that new bolts must be used. The originals are stretch bolts, as are the front caliper mounting bolts. You can never properly and safely retorque stretch bolts. But you know that, right?

Whitworth, (which became BSF or British Standard Fine), was one of the more obscure types, then there was Unified and some even more obtusely identified thread and spanner sizes. AUC, American Unified Course,

Thank god for metric and inches which seems to have added some sort of order to the nut, bolt and thread sizing of old.

Waspie wrote:

Whitworth, (which became BSF or British Standard Fine), was one of the more obscure types, then there was Unified and some even more obtusely identified thread and spanner sizes. AUC, American Unified Course,

Thank god for metric and inches which seems to have added some sort of order to the nut, bolt and thread sizing of old.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA so true

I think that is why they invented the adjustable wrench (affectionatley called the "cresent wrench" here.)
But now we have Torks and other weird bolts.

maxb

Bolts---yes I am aware of replace....but made the choice not to----as would probably about 99% of the dealers who changed tires for people.

Whole point: should be easier to remove rear wheel.

Waspie wrote:

The muffler or exhaust to me!! Has a break point using two bolts that spit the exhaust after the lamda sensor - so why remove sensor?

Don't really understand what you are doing.

Maybe it's not a Silver Wing!!!!!!!

Appology time!!!

Just had a good look at the configuration at the back of my Wing.

John I bow my head, I was wrong. The sensor is after the break so would have to be disconnected or muffler suspended.

Next time I will look then comment not comment and then look!!!!

Hi Guy's,

The last time I had my back wheel off my 2008, I just left the sensor hocked up and turned the muffler around so the back was toward the front of the scooter and placed it on a box next to the bike, Worked OK.

Well it worked for me.

Jeff, you said...."as a kid that Sears catalog was everything I needed to keep my dreams alive......electric guitars.....go karts.......Puch motorcycles and scooters........and last but surely not least......women in bras........"


You left off the most widely useful purpose in my neck of the woods growing up.... used one for reading in the outdoor potty, then, after the reading was over, tore that page out to finish the job.... that was before electric guitars, go karts and probably bras, I didn't use one myself....

Ah......Arkansas and outhouses......great memories of a bike trip back in the 70's. Turtles crossing the road as big as a VW Bug. The White River, Buffalo Pt, Mountain Home......I need to visit there again. Have you used any of the modern day, Dept of Nat Resources out houses?.......solar powered ventilation........Mighty, mighty fancy......But......no Sears catalogs. I need to look for the sensor on my 03. When I removed my muffler, I just removed my muffler, sat 'er off to the side, and finished the R+R. No wiring. A note from my dear departed Grandma Frances. "We sure haven't improved much, We used to tinkle outside and eat in the house, and now you invite me to your barbecue to eat outside and tinkle in the house". Jeff.

Jeff Rosenkranz wrote:

I need to look for the sensor on my 03. When I removed my muffler, I just removed my muffler, sat 'er off to the side, and finished the R+R. No wiring.

You didn't miss the sensor and you'll never find it. The O2 sensor was added to later models, I'll guess and say '06 and on, maybe '07, just not sure and way too lazy to go get my service manual.

I think the O2 sensor was added in the 2008 models.

Hi John. When I removed my swing arm, I didn't have to use a Torx. About two inches or so from those Torx heads is a single screw and plastic cover. Underneath this cover are two hex heads. That is where I seperated the swing arm. Wheel and tire clears just fine. Could anyone else who has done this service reply to this? John and I have bloodied our knuckles, and would like to simplify this as much as possible. Thanks for your knowledge..........is there a pictorial on this? Jeff.

Jeff Rosenkranz wrote:

....is there a pictorial on this?

I don't know if there's one here, but Leroy Beal has one: http://www.leroybeal.net/motorcycles/silverwing/articles/rearwheel/rearwheel.html

Hi Ed.........As Jimmy Dean would say....."Bless your pea-picken heart."
Or as Mayberry's finest mechanic....oops.....wait......who said?.."Well golllllllllllyyyy".......was that Goober, or Gomer? No wait.....it was Mr Haney who said, "Mr Douglas, I'll sell ya this here car tire for yer scooter, and put it on for ya, fer $3.oo, and include this auteegraphed picture of George Washington kissin ShaniaB Twain. Thanks Ed. Jeff.

When replaced my rear tire, I used the service guide and Leroy's website. It was a bit of a pain in the butt, although I don't recall needing to remove the O2 sensor.

Mostly I wished I had a front end wheel-stand for the scoot, I don't think I'm going to replace the front tire myself next time, my arrangement for holding the front end high enough was more than a little precarious...

Hi Sweendog. I was wondering if a Silverwing could do a wheelie......How did you lift the front end?......and why not buy that anti-gravity device that DennisB is working on when you need to lift 'er again? Oops......NASA wasn't supposed to know about "B"s top secret scooter projects. Gonna have to bake another cake with a file in it to get DennisB out of Guantanamo. Jeff

The Scootist wrote:

I think the O2 sensor was added in the 2008 models.

I checked the FSM and you are absolutely correct. O2 sensor was added after the 2007 MY.

Jeff Rosenkranz wrote:

Hi Sweendog. I was wondering if a Silverwing could do a wheelie......How did you lift the front end?.

I used two car-jacks, one each under a fork-tube end. I slowly raised one side a little, then the other a little, etc. It worked, but was not something I think I'll do again.

As somebody already mentioned, with the bike on the center stand, you can lift the front end pretty easily and scoot some thing under. I used a plastic milk crate with a piece of foam rubber on top, and had my wife slide it under while I lifted the front end. No problemo.

I tried lifting the scoot front-end while on the centerstand, but I coudln't get the clearance needed to remove the tire without removing the fender, which I didn't want to do.

I'm considering either taking it to the shop next time, or buying a head stand like this one: http://bit.ly/9hCiYW

Sweendog wrote:

I tried lifting the scoot front-end while on the centerstand, but I coudln't get the clearance needed to remove the tire without removing the fender, which I didn't want to do.
I'm considering either taking it to the shop next time, or buying a head stand like this one: http://bit.ly/9hCiYW

It's a lot cheaper to just remove the front fender than spend $160 for that. The 2 reflectors need to come off, then just the fender bolts. What, not even 5 minutes of work?

bigbird wrote:

It's a lot cheaper to just remove the front fender than spend $160 for that. The 2 reflectors need to come off, then just the fender bolts. What, not even 5 minutes of work?

I suppose it is, I was just trying to avoid taking off even more junk just to change a freaking tire.

Sweendog wrote:

I tried lifting the scoot front-end while on the centerstand, but I coudln't get the clearance needed to remove the tire without removing the fender, which I didn't want to do.

I'm considering either taking it to the shop next time, or buying a head stand like this one: http://bit.ly/9hCiYW

I forgot to mention that I was on my gravel driveway, and I scraped away some gravel under the wheel to get it off without removing the fender.

Sweendog wrote:

I tried lifting the scoot front-end while on the centerstand, but I coudln't get the clearance needed to remove the tire without removing the fender, which I didn't want to do.

Were you able to get the rear tire to touch the ground? If so, and you just needed another inch or so, you might try putting a couple of boards under the center stand so that it's higher up once you set it up on the stand, thus allowing the bike to pivot back a little more before the rear wheel stops it. I haven't actually tried this (I've only had the front wheel off once, and the fender needed to some off anyway), but it seems like it should work if you don't need too much more.