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 Proper linked brake use?

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DLK
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PostSubject: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06, 2019 2:58 pm

I am new to the world of scooters but have been riding all forms of motorcycles, 3 wheelers, and quads for a long time. I have a 2013 silverwing with abs and have a few questions about the linked braking when using the left or rear brake. Do I still use the brakes like I always did, about 80% with front and 20% rear using both levers? Or with the link do you only use the rear linked one and add the front for panic stops? Also are both ends full abs? and lastly, is it normal if you are coming in fast to a stop for the belt to keep pulling forward before it starts to drag? It only lasts a second or 2 but feels funny to me being used to a clutch.
Sorry for such newbie questions….
Thank you.
Dan
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Dale N.
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06, 2019 4:28 pm

The left brake handle gives about 60% to the rear and 40% to the front. The right brake handle is front brake only. About the only time I use the right handle is for something like a panic stop.
As far as ABS I'm not really sure as my 08 doesn't have them. But I believe that both ends are ABS.
As far as the belt goes my 08 starts to "drag" me down as soon as I let off the throttle then "glides" below 2,000 rpms. The belt stays engaged until 2,000 and that might be why you feel like it's still pulling you forward.
If you'll notice the clutch doesn't engage until 2,000 rpms and that's normal.
I hope my explanation is clearer than mud.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06, 2019 4:50 pm

Braking----if you do not use front brake (right lever) each and every time you brake you will never get to it in emergency situation, period.
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06, 2019 5:54 pm

Best to use both brakes all the time. ABS is on both wheels.
Front caliper has 3 pistons. 2 large 1 smaller.
Rear has only 1. Rear is linked to front smaller piston only. Front has much more stopping power than rear alone.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06, 2019 6:55 pm

My take....linked brakes came along to help unskilled/ untrained riders....but they are not the cure all
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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 07, 2019 1:48 pm

Think the rear has 2 pistons, front has 3
Third piston on front is in the middle and is narrower than the 2 outers
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 07, 2019 8:15 pm

phils a winger wrote:
Think the rear has 2 pistons, front has 3
Third piston on front is in the middle and is narrower than the 2 outers

You are right. 3 front 2 rear. Sorry . Ride on
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Seadog
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 08, 2019 6:46 pm

I was actually on an advanced motorcycle handling course (for about the third time) only the other day, with instructors who really know what they're talking about (Hopp Rider Training).  Their advice, born of long experience on road and track, and in training hundreds, if not thousands, of riders, is geared towards separate braking systems, but works absolutely fine on the 'Wing's linked system, and with ABS:

- Most riders use their brakes to only a minor proportion for their capability.  (Their advertising used to say 'What if your brakes only worked at 30% effectiveness?  What if the problem was you, the rider?)  I can vouch for the fact that after my first session with them I could do things with the bike I didn't think were physically possible, let alone within my capabilities.

- Most riders don't apply their brakes hard enough for an emergency stop, because they're scared of locking up the brakes and coming off.  This in turn is because they don't understand the different roles/capabilities of the front and back brakes, they don't know to properly apply the front brake, and they don't know how to recover when they get a lock up.

- If the back brake locks you'll slither a bit, but is easily recovered.

- If you lock the front you're off (unless you release the brake instantaneously and you're not on a bend).  

- The back brake cannot transmit a great deal of stopping power, because it's trailing the bike.  It's great for controlling the bike (both speed and amount of lean in a bend or turn)

- The front brake is hugely powerful, but has to be progressive loaded up - do not 'slam' it on.  As the bike starts to brake, more and more weight gets shifted into the front and enormously increases the front tyre's grip, and hence the amount of stopping power you can use, so you can keep adding more and more pressure on the lever once you've started braking.  This is the brake that has to do almost all the heavy work in an emergency stop, so you need to end up squeezing it as hard as you can.

- Do not ride with your hand on the front brake (when something unexpected happens you'll likely panic and jab it on too fast and risk locking up the front).  (This is still the hardest one for me to learn: I've been in the habit of 'covering' the front brake for many decades.)

- Do not operate the brake lever with two fingers.  (You won't have the full power you'll need for an emergency stop, and your other fingers could be trapped between the lever and the handlebar, preventing you from applying full braking.

- Do not use the front brake at low speed, or on bends.

- Use the back brake alone for general slowing, and for stopping from low speeds.

- For more urgent slowing (e.g. approaching a bend at speed) back brake plus progressively applied front.  

- For emergency braking quickly but progressively 'squeeze' the brakes as hard as you can.   (On non-ABS bikes, if the handlebars jump up towards you during an emergency stop you've locked the front, release immediately and re-apply progressively.)

- Practise emergency stops (be very careful of other traffic if you're doing this on the road).  You will get better at it.

The Silverwing's ABS and linked braking system tempers some of those issues, but the instructions are sound and can be directly applied.  

Using them, the Silverwing can be stopped surprisingly fast: even the instructors were impressed.   My Silverwing's brakes feel a quite soft, compared to some other bikes I've owned, but they're certainly plenty powerful enough when applied decisively.

No doubt there'll be someone along to quibble with some or other aspect of that advice, but trust me: it works.  Try it!
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 08, 2019 9:03 pm

Linked brakes came about to make bikes more idiot proof----but with SilverWing using both brakes applied together works and keeps you in practice for when you really need powerfull braking.

My experience with SilverWings----rear lever can be used as balancing aide.....applied lightly....hate to have bike leaned over and front kicks in===topple possibility in my book
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bikehiker
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 10, 2019 9:10 pm

Thank you, Seadog--this is the best and most informative post on this topic.  I had three spills and one bad fall by automatically panic-pulling that front brake.  Never try a panic stop while a bike has even a small lean or turn in its wheel.  I have paid much for those mistakes because I am a constant pedal bike rider in which the brake handles are the opposite than on a motorbike.  

The front brakes on most bikes have bigger disks/pistons or more disks/pistons to avoid most straight-on crashes, but, as riding instructors will tell you, you slow down before a curve  and you accelerate out of a curve--so that you won't brake IN a curve.  And as Seadog says, " The back brake cannot transmit a great deal of stopping power, because it's trailing the bike.  It's great for controlling the bike (both speed and amount of lean in a bend or turn)."

I think that more bike spills than we think are caused by pulling too hard on that front brake in a turn.  

I thank Honda for incorporating linked brakes--their engineers have done this for a reason.  Perhaps they also study statistics.  I would hesitate to go back to any un-linked brake system on a motorbike.  Linked brakes may be for idiots, but panic situations tend to turn many of us--who have such high regard for our common sense--into idiots. I'm living (and almost dying) proof of this mistake.

Someone used to tell me that he never wore seat belts because in an accident, he could not exit the car because he would be locked in by his seat belt.  I guess by now we all know how people not wearing seat belts have exited their vehicles so quickly--and so far away from the accident. They didn't even have a chance to panic.
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 11, 2019 12:38 am

Better than linked brakes was the ABS brakes. Initially an option for the Swing, standard from around 2008. My 2¢. Sorry different topic.
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GHM-PM
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 11, 2019 8:35 am

Properly applying brakes is a MUST. In the US most of us kids grew up with "coaster brakes" on our bicycles. You learned to stop using the rear brake alone because it was the ONLY one haha. My first lesson with hand brakes (English 10 speed) was flying down a hill and appled the front brake HARD. After rolling to a stop and finding bike behind me (I flew over the handlebars), I picked up my scraped and sore body and limped home. I am SO glad I learned that lesson on a bicycle with no traffic rather than on a motorcycle traveling down the expressway at 70 MPH in traffic. Taught me a healthy respect for the front brake!!! Never did that again Shocked
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 11, 2019 9:02 am

Linked brakes have been around for donkeys years, I first remember them on various Moto Guzzi models back in the mid to late 1970’s. Then BMW brought out ABS brakes on their early K-Series bikes in the early 80's.

My Forza has HSTC Honda Selectable Torque Control, basically traction control that kicks in when it detects the rear wheel is travelling faster than the front one.
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 11, 2019 2:25 pm

Meldrew wrote:

My Forza has HSTC Honda Selectable Torque Control, basically traction control that kicks in when it detects the rear wheel is travelling faster than the front one.

Hi bud, with regard to this, DON'T rev' the bike when it's on the centre stand, when the wheel 'spins up' the cpu will see an error between rear & front wheel speeds that will require Honda dealer to plug into it's computer to clear the error
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Loosebearing
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 11, 2019 2:50 pm

What a subject! I generally ride with two fingers on the left lever for general in-town or suburban riding, but I'm ready to grab the front one in an emergency. I've had a couple of sharp pull-ups at speed and I can hear the front tyre skidding (no ABS).

I would rather the rear brake locked up first in a an emergency but when I rode 'normal' bikes, I always used front and back gently and progressively, and then just 'grabbed' it all in an emergency.

Road surface, weather, obstacles, corners.....it's a minefield.

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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 13, 2019 12:39 am

Honda put linked brakes on several models of their products. Goldwings have had and still have linked brakes. Basically you can just ignore the fact they're linked. If you have ABS the fact they are linked is pretty much moot. Just grab a handful of both levers and squeeze them. The ABS will keep straight and won't let a wheel skid. Try it out and see how well it works, I won't have another bike without ABS.

In slow maneuvering use of the front brake is not advised, run the engine enough to keep the clutch engaged and control speed with the rear brake just as one should with any bike, linked or not.

Take a look at Jerry Paladino's, "Ride Like a Pro" videos. What he teaches works as well on a SW as on a big heavy bike like a Harley or Goldwing.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf88EFO_GdwPw7XnVBl_0Iw
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DickO
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 13, 2019 1:09 am

The Bern wrote:
Meldrew wrote:

My Forza has HSTC Honda Selectable Torque Control, basically traction control that kicks in when it detects the rear wheel is travelling faster than the front one.

Hi bud, with regard to this, DON'T rev' the bike when it's on the centre stand, when the wheel 'spins up' the cpu will see an error between rear & front wheel speeds that will require Honda dealer to plug into it's computer to clear the error

Hey Bern... this must apply to later model units... for winter "warmups" in the garage area, I ran my '05 up to 60mph or more on the center stand (two or three times in the season) with no ill effects.  Just my two cents worth.
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 14, 2019 11:47 pm

The Bern wrote:

Hi bud, with regard to this, DON'T rev' the bike when it's on the centre stand, when the wheel 'spins up' the cpu will see an error between rear & front wheel speeds that will require Honda dealer to plug into it's computer to clear the error

I wonder what years this was the case? On both of our ABS bikes the ABS is off until the front wheel senses at least 5 mph. Once the light goes out, then the ABS becomes active. I've run both of them on the center stand with no adverse effect on the ABS computer.

Both me and my wife like the linked brakes and we like the ABS. We use them like you would any normal motorcycle braking system and they automatically cover for mistakes on sand or wet pavement, or gravel.

My opinion is that if you use the brakes normal they'll work as designed and help prevent inadvertently locking up a wheel. If you use them in some weird configuration like trying to trail brake thru a corner even the best safety features can be defeated with conscious effort on the part of the rider.
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 15, 2019 12:09 am

I believe Meldrew was referring to the Forza with HSTC Honda Selectable Torque Control and not the Silverwings.
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Lost it
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PostSubject: Re: Proper linked brake use?    Proper linked brake use?  I_icon_minitimeFri May 31, 2019 4:58 am

Well there's a minefield for you...

First bike I ever rode that had linked brakes was a 1998 Honda CBR 1000. They weren't a great success, everyone said they were a mistake etc. Then I bought a VFR 800fiX with linked brakes, and again it wasn't quite there, both front calipers had three cylinders, the rear one had three cylinders also, and the footbrake applied the front after a slight period of wait whilst the brake balance accumulator pressurised.

Then I got a Blackbird and that linked both front with one piston in the rear, I found it a hard bike to use for filtering because if you trailed the rear brake, eventually both front brakes would come on and it would slow quite rapidly.

Then I got my 2007 VFR Vtec. And on this model Honda got it right, only one front caliper was linked to the rear, and on the brake tester if you can get enough pressure on the rear brake pedal it will eventually provide enough brake effort to the front to "lock" the tyre in the  brake tester. Something I didn't believe until I was shown it happening.

As to whether it's a good thing, well on the motorcycle version, working off the foot brake, it definitely is because it's quite capable of slowing the bike rapidly using the brake pedal. And you won't ever lock a tyre. It also seems to "pull" the bike down onto the road, I guess it's pushing against the brake torsion bar and imposing a force on the rear suspension?

So I was quite pleased to discover the Wing had a linked brake system, but I would have preferred that it was on the front brake system so that the bike is always being braked by the linked system. Because the bike is so much more stable.

I've done days, two in fact with the California Superbike School at Silverstone. And it's absolutely right that most people have no idea just how good bike brakes are. Even in the wet.

I remember "trying" the ABS out on my Vtec when I got it. I did everything I could to do a proper test. Wet road, lots of gravel at a T junction, ride up at about 40mph and hit everything as hard as I dared about 30 foot from the junction just in case it started to become a bit lairy. The bike stopped so fast I almost didn't get my feet down in time to stop it falling over. My nuts hit the tank, my feet lifted off the pegs and it just stopped. No ABS, no drama at all except for me trying really hard to hold the bike up when it stopped. And that was on pretty standard tyres, well before the computer designed high silica sticky gloop we get these days for bike rubber.

Lesson learned.
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